You say that "It will cost her somewhere between $50K and $100K and she/her lawyer will have to prove that the CRT decision, on its face, is “patently unreasonable”'.
I almost never advise any condo/strata owner to initiate a court application against their condo corporation let alone a government agency. I sued my condo corporation twice and although I won, and received my legal fees, it was not much of a victory. I moved.
I have no idea what the odds are for winning an appeal of a CRT decision. Only a BC lawyer who is experienced in strata law could give a knowledgeable opinion.
We don't know how reasonable Linda Woo's complaints were. It is likely that she is noise-sensitive. I still think that it would be best for her to move.
There is no longer any such thing as an appeal if a strata CRT decision. The only option is a very expensive ($50K to $100K) judicial review and again one must meet the very high standard, proving the CRT’s decision was “patently unreasonable” and that is defined to mean “absurd or very close to absurd on its face”…… so indeed the odds are low of winning and even if you do win, the judge is obliged in all but very rare circumstances, to defer to the CRT, so they most often (nearly always!) send it back to the CRT for the tribunal to review its decision, usually with instructions by the court..
I should mention that a CRT process takes about 2 years, so for instance, if your application is to get records under mandatory section 36 of the B.C. Strata Property ACT, the documents will likely be stale and because the CRT doesn’t enforce its own orders it is close to guaranteed that the strata council will completely ignore the CRT’s orders, so then the claimant has to file the orders with the B.C. Supreme Court and then the next step is a Judicial Review.
Typically, when the court bounces a decision back to the CRT, the whole thing just seems to disappear and no one knows why. Or, if the CRT does ‘reconsider’ itheir decision, it seems to many that they respond in a fashion that looks like a doubling down against the owner-claimant.
Most agree it is a very strata biased system.
If there is any version of justice for B.C. Strata homeowners it is as rough as the rockiest outback road in Canada. I think it is likely impossible for the average Ontario condo owner to imagine how bad things are in BC’s strataland. If moving here and into a condo, you need to do 100x more homework than you think.
The solution Jason Proctor of CBC, and now you (for him) propose for Linda Woo is not viable or fair. Not everyone can afford to move and a noisy non-compliant neighbour should never be the reason. Linda Woo should be able to count on her strata to intervene. She has documented and submitted her complaints over the years.
The BC Strata Property ACT (and nearly all other CRT decisions regarding nuisance) require the strata to properly and comprehensively investigate all claims of nuisance and it must enforce its bylaws. Nuisance has a very particular exacting definition to do with use and enjoyment of one’s home, which is a fundamental right. The interference with the quality of her life is what Linda Woo was/is required to prove, meaning the impact on her. She is required to prove her case on the balance of probabilities not ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ .. the latter standard is reserved for criminal court. She is not required to prove that the noise reaches a certain decibel level… that is strata’s job. Investigation falls under the legal obligation (case law) to maintain per the Guenther decision by the BCSCourt and per the Quackenbush decision by the CRT. The CRT does not and cannot enforce its own ‘orders’
Linda Woo was clearly frustrated and exhausted but at least she was honest in saying she tapped on her neighbour’s ceiling to help them understand. Megan Stewart’s decision was biased and unfair in the opinion of many here in B.C. Please don’t target Linda Woo more now, in social media.
Strata is charged with investigating and following through with bylaw enforcement but that too can be a daunting and expensive task as it boils down to expensive testing UNLESS they are instead able to win the cooperation of the noise makers (in this case….. keeping in mind that nuisance complaints are of a wide variety, and not always noise related).
Keeping someone awake at night most nights for years because you are unwilling to buy a few area rugs, or felt pads for your chairs or keep the music down after 10 p.m. is, plain and simple, unreasonable! Remember, we don’t get to see the evidence submitted to the CRT and we do not really know if it has been read, let alone carefully, nor whether the single adjudicator making the decision has the skills, experience and dedication to be fair or even to deliver a basic form of justice. We don’t have any version of the open process that was formerly available via the actual court system.
Linda Woo, if she has the youth, tremendous energy required and a ton of money, now has only one option left and that is to make application to the B.C. Supreme Court for a judicial review of the CRT’s decision. She must apply to do that within 60 days of the decision. The work involved is colossal. There is no appeal process in BC, only a judicial review. It will cost her somewhere between $50K and $100K and she/her lawyer will have to prove that the CRT decision, on its face, is “patently unreasonable” and that is defined to mean, that without going over the decision line by line, or in any detailed way, the judge must be able to determine that the decision bordered on, or was absurd. Even if the judge does find that, they must, most often, defer to the Tribunal and send the decision back to the CRT for reconsideration. There are a few exceptions that allow for the judge to make the decision on its merits, himself or herself.
So goes the merry-go-round in B.C. with the application of the law and justice now illusive for strata homeowners.
Please don’t be too hard on Linda Woo. Long before she applied to the CRT she had tried everything else to creatively problem solve and win the cooperation of her neighbours and her strata council. She has lived with a nightmare. I have direct knowledge of what her realities have been. Moving to single family housing is now an option only for the most wealthy in BC! Moving to another strata may mean jumping from the frying pan into the fire. It may also mean moving out of community that has been yours for many years and away from the resources one has relied on for the same length of time. That is NOT a reasonable or viable option for most and both selling and buying are extremely expensive! BC has now added yet another tax for ‘flipping’ that means a huge penalty for anyone who buys and then sells within two years. If you find yourself living under a nasty noisy neighbour, you are stuck with paying the huge extra tax if you move before 2 years have gone by. The tax may reduce flipping and treating homes like they are just a commodity but it won’t help people in Linda Woo’s predicament.
The CRT, at best, delivers a very rough form of justice and says so itself. It is not a court process and it is unfair to suggest, as you of Jadon have, that it is. What you have, in Ontario, is something far better although I am told it too needs lots of improvement.
BC strata homeowners now MUST make application to the CRT first for nearly all strata related matters, even if hundreds of thousands of dollars are involved. Unlike the motor vehicle claims and small claims sections of the CRT, where there is a dollar limit on claims that can be made, the strata division of the CRT has no dollar limit. Some adjudicators are not lawyers! Their decisions can and do have profound impact on the lives of owners!
Far better is any version of neighbours being actual neighbours and respecting the rights of others to use and enjoy their home. Settling matters in-house is far better for everyone and the money strata spends on lawyers can then instead be spent on the building(s). However, this does require actual cooperation which seems to be close to extinct in B.C. Stratas!
Meanwhile, the B.C. government could upgrade and update its sloppy building codes to better control for noise, eliminate smoking (of anything) in multi-family complexes and generally change the 25 year old Strata Property ACT which hasn’t been changed in any meaningful way for a quarter of a century! Any changes they have made just help developers to toss up more shoddy buildings in a big hurry. Owner rights now nearly always take back seat to the perceived rights of developers, management companies, rogue strata councils (boards), insurance companies and a host of industry insiders and of course, lawyers, all being paid for by the same owners whose rights are going fast, or are already gone.
Yes, I agree it is not healthy but it might be the only option for many if not most. One can lose their entire security for the future by selling at the wrong time, and in Vancouver and the lower mainland selling also means you will get a lot less and pay a whole lot more for a much smaller space.... and odds are you will be jumping from the frying pan into the fire... as condoland here is now horrific. Generally, stratas in BC are unhealthy. Our strata which was meant to be "sophisticated" has cleaned the ducting for the makeup air unit serving the corridors twice in 18 years. The 'clean air' ducting into each unit (common property) has NEVER been cleaned.
There are usually a hundred reasons to apply the "if you don't like it, move" principle. Sometimes, it is the board or strata council that should move, the tyrant types and the types that are on council forever but are never fairly elected, and often not elected at all. Many of that type are disinterested in quality of life, except their own and noise doesn't usually affect those living in the $4 and $5 million dollar penthouses where the noise barriers are in place while the rest of the building lives with whatever. When democracy fails, in my experience, many or most other things fail. I am simply saying "easier said than done". I have great empathy for Linda Woo's experience, even though noise from neighbours is not a problem at our strata. Noise from construction and dust from construction has been constant since about 2014 and complaining to our municipal like authority is a total waste of time .. they say, for everything, "that's a strata issue" while we pay the same taxes as all others living nearby (based on a number of factors) in the city noise is indeed a municipal issue. It seems that nearly veryone wants to live in Vancouver or the lower mainland so the idea of selling and then trying to find another place to buy, is an overwhelming thought for many, especially the elderly, the disabled and families with kids in schools. Many areas do not have enough schools so if you have your kids in a school, you stay put.
Good morning Strata Homeowner 101:
Thank you for your comments.
You say that "It will cost her somewhere between $50K and $100K and she/her lawyer will have to prove that the CRT decision, on its face, is “patently unreasonable”'.
I almost never advise any condo/strata owner to initiate a court application against their condo corporation let alone a government agency. I sued my condo corporation twice and although I won, and received my legal fees, it was not much of a victory. I moved.
I have no idea what the odds are for winning an appeal of a CRT decision. Only a BC lawyer who is experienced in strata law could give a knowledgeable opinion.
We don't know how reasonable Linda Woo's complaints were. It is likely that she is noise-sensitive. I still think that it would be best for her to move.
H. Marshall
There is no longer any such thing as an appeal if a strata CRT decision. The only option is a very expensive ($50K to $100K) judicial review and again one must meet the very high standard, proving the CRT’s decision was “patently unreasonable” and that is defined to mean “absurd or very close to absurd on its face”…… so indeed the odds are low of winning and even if you do win, the judge is obliged in all but very rare circumstances, to defer to the CRT, so they most often (nearly always!) send it back to the CRT for the tribunal to review its decision, usually with instructions by the court..
I should mention that a CRT process takes about 2 years, so for instance, if your application is to get records under mandatory section 36 of the B.C. Strata Property ACT, the documents will likely be stale and because the CRT doesn’t enforce its own orders it is close to guaranteed that the strata council will completely ignore the CRT’s orders, so then the claimant has to file the orders with the B.C. Supreme Court and then the next step is a Judicial Review.
Typically, when the court bounces a decision back to the CRT, the whole thing just seems to disappear and no one knows why. Or, if the CRT does ‘reconsider’ itheir decision, it seems to many that they respond in a fashion that looks like a doubling down against the owner-claimant.
Most agree it is a very strata biased system.
If there is any version of justice for B.C. Strata homeowners it is as rough as the rockiest outback road in Canada. I think it is likely impossible for the average Ontario condo owner to imagine how bad things are in BC’s strataland. If moving here and into a condo, you need to do 100x more homework than you think.
Hello Mr. Marshall
The solution Jason Proctor of CBC, and now you (for him) propose for Linda Woo is not viable or fair. Not everyone can afford to move and a noisy non-compliant neighbour should never be the reason. Linda Woo should be able to count on her strata to intervene. She has documented and submitted her complaints over the years.
The BC Strata Property ACT (and nearly all other CRT decisions regarding nuisance) require the strata to properly and comprehensively investigate all claims of nuisance and it must enforce its bylaws. Nuisance has a very particular exacting definition to do with use and enjoyment of one’s home, which is a fundamental right. The interference with the quality of her life is what Linda Woo was/is required to prove, meaning the impact on her. She is required to prove her case on the balance of probabilities not ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ .. the latter standard is reserved for criminal court. She is not required to prove that the noise reaches a certain decibel level… that is strata’s job. Investigation falls under the legal obligation (case law) to maintain per the Guenther decision by the BCSCourt and per the Quackenbush decision by the CRT. The CRT does not and cannot enforce its own ‘orders’
Linda Woo was clearly frustrated and exhausted but at least she was honest in saying she tapped on her neighbour’s ceiling to help them understand. Megan Stewart’s decision was biased and unfair in the opinion of many here in B.C. Please don’t target Linda Woo more now, in social media.
Strata is charged with investigating and following through with bylaw enforcement but that too can be a daunting and expensive task as it boils down to expensive testing UNLESS they are instead able to win the cooperation of the noise makers (in this case….. keeping in mind that nuisance complaints are of a wide variety, and not always noise related).
Keeping someone awake at night most nights for years because you are unwilling to buy a few area rugs, or felt pads for your chairs or keep the music down after 10 p.m. is, plain and simple, unreasonable! Remember, we don’t get to see the evidence submitted to the CRT and we do not really know if it has been read, let alone carefully, nor whether the single adjudicator making the decision has the skills, experience and dedication to be fair or even to deliver a basic form of justice. We don’t have any version of the open process that was formerly available via the actual court system.
Linda Woo, if she has the youth, tremendous energy required and a ton of money, now has only one option left and that is to make application to the B.C. Supreme Court for a judicial review of the CRT’s decision. She must apply to do that within 60 days of the decision. The work involved is colossal. There is no appeal process in BC, only a judicial review. It will cost her somewhere between $50K and $100K and she/her lawyer will have to prove that the CRT decision, on its face, is “patently unreasonable” and that is defined to mean, that without going over the decision line by line, or in any detailed way, the judge must be able to determine that the decision bordered on, or was absurd. Even if the judge does find that, they must, most often, defer to the Tribunal and send the decision back to the CRT for reconsideration. There are a few exceptions that allow for the judge to make the decision on its merits, himself or herself.
So goes the merry-go-round in B.C. with the application of the law and justice now illusive for strata homeowners.
Please don’t be too hard on Linda Woo. Long before she applied to the CRT she had tried everything else to creatively problem solve and win the cooperation of her neighbours and her strata council. She has lived with a nightmare. I have direct knowledge of what her realities have been. Moving to single family housing is now an option only for the most wealthy in BC! Moving to another strata may mean jumping from the frying pan into the fire. It may also mean moving out of community that has been yours for many years and away from the resources one has relied on for the same length of time. That is NOT a reasonable or viable option for most and both selling and buying are extremely expensive! BC has now added yet another tax for ‘flipping’ that means a huge penalty for anyone who buys and then sells within two years. If you find yourself living under a nasty noisy neighbour, you are stuck with paying the huge extra tax if you move before 2 years have gone by. The tax may reduce flipping and treating homes like they are just a commodity but it won’t help people in Linda Woo’s predicament.
The CRT, at best, delivers a very rough form of justice and says so itself. It is not a court process and it is unfair to suggest, as you of Jadon have, that it is. What you have, in Ontario, is something far better although I am told it too needs lots of improvement.
BC strata homeowners now MUST make application to the CRT first for nearly all strata related matters, even if hundreds of thousands of dollars are involved. Unlike the motor vehicle claims and small claims sections of the CRT, where there is a dollar limit on claims that can be made, the strata division of the CRT has no dollar limit. Some adjudicators are not lawyers! Their decisions can and do have profound impact on the lives of owners!
Far better is any version of neighbours being actual neighbours and respecting the rights of others to use and enjoy their home. Settling matters in-house is far better for everyone and the money strata spends on lawyers can then instead be spent on the building(s). However, this does require actual cooperation which seems to be close to extinct in B.C. Stratas!
Meanwhile, the B.C. government could upgrade and update its sloppy building codes to better control for noise, eliminate smoking (of anything) in multi-family complexes and generally change the 25 year old Strata Property ACT which hasn’t been changed in any meaningful way for a quarter of a century! Any changes they have made just help developers to toss up more shoddy buildings in a big hurry. Owner rights now nearly always take back seat to the perceived rights of developers, management companies, rogue strata councils (boards), insurance companies and a host of industry insiders and of course, lawyers, all being paid for by the same owners whose rights are going fast, or are already gone.
I state my opinions based on what I think is best for the owners. To stay in a condo unit where you are miserable is not healthy.
Yes, I agree it is not healthy but it might be the only option for many if not most. One can lose their entire security for the future by selling at the wrong time, and in Vancouver and the lower mainland selling also means you will get a lot less and pay a whole lot more for a much smaller space.... and odds are you will be jumping from the frying pan into the fire... as condoland here is now horrific. Generally, stratas in BC are unhealthy. Our strata which was meant to be "sophisticated" has cleaned the ducting for the makeup air unit serving the corridors twice in 18 years. The 'clean air' ducting into each unit (common property) has NEVER been cleaned.
There are usually a hundred reasons to apply the "if you don't like it, move" principle. Sometimes, it is the board or strata council that should move, the tyrant types and the types that are on council forever but are never fairly elected, and often not elected at all. Many of that type are disinterested in quality of life, except their own and noise doesn't usually affect those living in the $4 and $5 million dollar penthouses where the noise barriers are in place while the rest of the building lives with whatever. When democracy fails, in my experience, many or most other things fail. I am simply saying "easier said than done". I have great empathy for Linda Woo's experience, even though noise from neighbours is not a problem at our strata. Noise from construction and dust from construction has been constant since about 2014 and complaining to our municipal like authority is a total waste of time .. they say, for everything, "that's a strata issue" while we pay the same taxes as all others living nearby (based on a number of factors) in the city noise is indeed a municipal issue. It seems that nearly veryone wants to live in Vancouver or the lower mainland so the idea of selling and then trying to find another place to buy, is an overwhelming thought for many, especially the elderly, the disabled and families with kids in schools. Many areas do not have enough schools so if you have your kids in a school, you stay put.